Self-Advocacy Strategies for Career Growth with HBP CHRO Angela Cheng-Cimini

Talk Talent to Me Podcast Returns with New Sponsor – LHH!

Welcome to the first LHH-sponsored podcast episode of Talk Talent to Me (TT2M), the number one destination for in-depth conversations with elite professionals in talent and HR. Host Rob Stevenson talks to VPs of Talent, Chief People Officers, CEOs, Heads of Professional Development, CHROs, and everyone in between. “They all come on the show to do one thing,” says Rob, “– Talk Talent to Me.”

This episode features Angela Cheng-Cimini, CHRO of Harvard Business Publishing (HBP), discussing topics ranging from self-advocacy at work to supporting employee mental wellness.

Angela shares her career journey, emphasizing the importance of HR's role in organizational impact. She provides insights into HBP’s business divisions, her strategies for fostering a positive workplace culture, and ways to measure the effectiveness of employee programs.

Key Topics for this Podcast Episode

1. Self-Advocacy at Work: Encouraging employees to promote themselves effectively without seeming boastful. Suggestions to tailor their approach based on personality types and organizational culture.
2. Expanding Influence: Advice on leveraging one-on-ones to understand and align with organizational priorities and expanding visibility across hierarchical levels.
3. Mental Wellness Initiatives: Angela highlights the importance of holistic strategies, such as creating peer-based mental health programs and encouraging time-off practices.
4. Leadership and Employee Engagement: The need for compassionate managers, a supportive organizational environment, and resources to sustain engagement and productivity.
5. Evolving Career Mindset: Advocating for career mobility and personal growth as essential to career satisfaction.

Listen to the Full Episode

Editor’s note: episode originally recorded in October 2024. Transcript edited for readability and length.

Rob Welcomes Podcast Listeners Back After Hiatus

Host Rob Stevenson: Yes, it's true. Talk Talent to Me takes back to the airwaves from the cozy confines of a beat lab / blanket fort in Denver, Colorado. Did you miss me? I missed you all desperately. How was your summer? Mine was great. Thanks for asking.

I got a new podcast logo. I got a new podcast intro. I got a new podcast sponsor. Shout out to LHH who are very happy to let me do my thing here as you might have gathered from my cheeky and macabre Titanic intro.

Editor’s note: The Talk Talent to Me podcast was previously sponsored by LHH legacy brand Hired from 2017 – 2024. In June 2024 parent company the Adecco Group rolled Hired into LHH Recruitment Solutions.

What that means is the show you know and love is basically the same. Same format, same type of guests, same train, new gravy. By now, you all know how this works.

I'm gonna bring in folks from the hiring, HR, people management space I believe are up to really interesting stuff and ask them how they attack the kind of challenges that I anticipate you have right now or will have down the line. And today episode 361, is no different.

Today on the pod, I am joined by an amazing guest who’s held roles at PepsiCo, Hasbro, Dell, ClearMotion, and currently serves as the SVP of Talent and Chief Human Resources Officer for Harvard Business Publishing.

She and I have a great conversation all about how to advocate for yourself at work and make sure that you get what you deserve, that you get credit for all the awesome work you're doing, and oh, so much more in this conversation.

Rob Welcomes Angela to the Podcast

Please give a warm TT2M welcome to Harvard Business Publishing's Angela Cheng-Cimini. Angela welcome to the show. How are you?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I'm doing great, Rob. Good to be here.

Host Rob Stevenson: I'm really pleased to have you. We have so much to speak about, and I'm excited for this one because I'm pretty familiar with your company, with the content you put out as a content guy myself. And the research you publish, it's really relevant to this space, the talent space for sure.

I assume the folks within the reach of our voices here will also be familiar with Harvard Business Publishing. But I would just love to know here at the top, Angela, a little bit more about you. Would you mind sharing about yourself and how you came to be in this current position?

How Angela Began her HR Journey

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Sure. I have to give props to my dad who thirty-some odd years ago said, ‘I think you should go study HR’ and actually found the curriculum for me at Cornell University.

I'm definitely not a STEM kid, knew I wanted to do something in business, but this was even more specialized than that. I loved everything about the curriculum, organizational psych, change management, labor icon, even a little bit of statistics, and just have never looked back.

So, I've been doing this for a very long time and seen several different waves of how work has changed, and particularly since the pandemic, I think all of us in HR have grown by leaps and bounds and really discovered that we can have real impact on organizations. So, it's just been a joy to be in this space.

Host Rob Stevenson: I'm really surprised to hear you were advised that long ago to get into HR. Did your dad see something about you, thought you'd be really good in the role? Why do you think he recommended that for you?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It's a great question. I think he knew I wasn't a science and math kid.

Host Rob Stevenson: It was like the next best thing is HR.

Why HR Resonated with Angela

Angela Cheng-Cimini: [At Cornell,] the curriculum is focused on organized labor. A lot of kids at the time went on to law school or they went into HR. So, it was very business adjacent. It wasn't general management, it wasn't finance, but it was definitely within the business sphere.

I think he saw a lot of pieces of the curriculum would suit me and he was absolutely right. Organizational psychology in particular. We use a lot of that when we talk to employees about how they go through change. I obviously studied compensation and benefits and the design of those, organizational effectiveness, learning and development.

All of those things I practice now.

Host Rob Stevenson: Was the curriculum then explicitly HR, or was it sort of piecemeal; these are the skills that will lend themselves to that kind of career?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah. So, everybody graduates from that program with the same degree. But it’s customized with the courses that appeal to you the most. So, you could take something with a stronger labor bent or law bent. I chose a track focused on HR.

Host Rob Stevenson: Personally, I'm very grateful you did because here we are now doing this show together. And, boy, there's so much I wanna speak to you about because you have a lot of the kind of the same sort of challenges that folks I speak to just about all of their recruiting, hiring, and development stuff.

Self-Advocacy Without the Ick – How to Grow Your Profile in the Workplace

I want to ask you about one of the pieces you wrote. It's called How to Become More Visible at Work. I was intrigued by this piece because I think it's so important for people to advocate for themselves. And I think we get a lot of bad advice on how to do so. Usually, that advice is not to do so.

Usually, that advice is ‘Just put your head down, work harder than everyone else, crush it, hit all your goals, and because we live in a meritocracy that effort will be seen and rewarded.’

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Mhmm.

Host Rob Stevenson: Not necessarily been true in my experience. Is that hold true for you too? Do you think it's not merely enough to be really good at your job?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: No. A hundred percent. So, I wrote this article with a colleague of mine, Nikki Smith, Nicole Smith. She works on the HBR side of the business. We wanted to write something that would advise early career folks, especially, how to find the courage to speak up for yourself in a way that promotes yourself but doesn't have all the ickiness sometimes associated with that.

And I know that feeling really well because from my Asian heritage, being a child of immigrants, our culture, in fact, really applauds that. Just keep your head down and eventually someone will notice you.

And so that's something culturally that's really pervasive and growing up in a very western society, working in western cultures. We have to learn to find ways to lift our head and raise our hand and say no, actually, that credit belongs to me.

There are lots of reasons why we thought that piece was really important to write, both personally and professionally.

How to Promote Yourself Within Your Comfort Zone

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. It makes sense. And it's a delicate thing too because what is the line between self-advocating and being braggadocious? Do you have thoughts on that? Like, how do you talk about how great you are without sounding like you're impressed with yourself?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I think that's really to a person because some people are naturally going to be more vocal, loud, and are super comfortable with that. And then there are those who are introverted, who find it more difficult to do that. I think it's about finding the sweet spot where you can do it in a way most comfortable for you.

Example for Introvert Personality Types

If, for example, you are an introvert, then follow-up with an email and say, ‘Hey, I really enjoyed working on this project and the way I thought I added value and contributed to the success of this is x, y, and z.’

So, you don't necessarily have to do it in the moment or in public. But you should say something so that people don't overlook you.

Extroverted? Solicit Feedback to Hone Your Approach

And of course, if you are prone to be vocal, check-in with someone. ‘Hey, was that too braggadocious? What was the volume on that?’ I don't mean the literal volume, but how much space did I take? Take feedback from your colleagues and peers willing to be candid and truthful with you. This helps you hone the way you talk about yourself and your work in a way easily received by the people who most need to hear it.

Host Rob Stevenson: Do you remember that scene in Office Space where they're doing this first round of interviews to basically decide who they're gonna lay off? And one of the consultant characters keeps asking, 'what is it you'd say you'd do here?'

You don't wanna be answering that question in the week before layoffs, right? If you're answering it, then it's too late. And it was too late for the character in the movie, spoiler.

But that email example you gave is great. It's just, 'hey, I think this project was a success. I really enjoy contributing in these ways.' That's a way to just identify 'what it is you say you do here.' You're saying it at the time that the work is being done to remind folks.

Prepare Your Elevator Pitch for Chance Meetings

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I think it's really important for people to have an elevator pitch on hand. So, you talked about, ‘what is it that you do around here?’ You actually should have that message ready in your back pocket. Even though we're working in a very different way, [hybrid, remote], there are serendipitous moments when you share an elevator with a CEO or stand in the lunch line with an important executive. [Or, if you’re the first two to arrive for a Zoom meeting].

Related: Out of Sight, Not Out of Mind: How to Gain Recognition Within New Work Models

You might find yourself in a moment where you should be able to say in 30 seconds or less how you add value and what's distinctive about what you do. Right? I mean, that's why it's called an elevator pitch because you should be able to answer that question concisely. And it's a piece of employee branding that a lot of people don't spend time perfecting.

I would encourage everybody to do that little bit of homework, just a couple of sentences. 'Hi, my name is Angela. It's so nice to meet you. I've heard you speak several times. I'm in the HR department. I've been working on these couple projects. If you had time, I would love to just have a coffee chat with you and talk about things that you're working on and ways in which I can help.' Boom. Done.

Host Rob Stevenson: Beautiful.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: You should have that ready.

Know Your Audience - How to Make Your Employee Brand Pitch Sing

Host Rob Stevenson: And it should be different depending on who it's for, right? When I'm speaking to my mom's friends, it's different than what I'm talking to a CFO.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's right.

Host Rob Stevenson: It should be based in terms of what do they care about?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yes!

Host Rob Stevenson: The things my mom can brag about in her church group, cares about, or even can relay accurately are very different than the business case for my employment. Is it that cut and dry? It's, this is why I'm paid. This is the value I bring to the business. If you can boil it down to that, that's what the higher ups care about. Or do you think it should be more strategic?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: No. I mean, I think it all depends. I mean, some people wanna get really deep and juicy and they'll take you up on the offer and others just wanna know your name. And that's actually one of the pieces that we call out in the article is know what's important to your boss. Understand what your boss is working on. And if you're really good, understand what your boss's boss is working on.

"So the bigger you enlarge your sphere of influence, the more likely you are to have allies in the organization and people who will think of you when there's a piece of work that you can easily slot into."

Host Rob Stevenson: Oooh, this is positively Machiavellian. I love it. Can you speak more about spheres like expanding your spheres of influence?

How to Use Your 1:1s to Expand Your Sphere of Influence

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah. So, in your 1 to 1, your boss should be asking you, 'What are you doing? What are you working on? What help do you need?' But turn the tables and say, 'Well, what are you working on?' Maybe that I can't directly impact right now, but if there are other ways in which I can get involved, even if it's just to attend a meeting so I can listen in, and I can be present, that would be helpful.

Then ask another question, which is - 'That's amazing. What's your boss working on?' And just start the conversation there, and then you can start to tailor your work around those other spheres and start to add value.

Host Rob Stevenson: Work your way all the way up to the CEO. Work your way to the president of the country.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Right? I mean, you won't get there if you don't try.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. You don't ask. You don't get.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's right.

Host Rob Stevenson: Which is, I guess, you don't ask, you don't get, is sort of the thesis of that article, right? If you just keep your head down and toil in silence and you wait to be recognized, you may wait a very, very long time.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Right. You might get lucky, but wouldn't everybody rather have control?

Host Rob Stevenson: Yes.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: This is a small way to exercise that.

Host Rob Stevenson: I love it. I love the idea of just trying to understand what your boss and your boss's boss are working on. In my experience, if you make your boss's life easier, if you do something, if you take something off their plate, they will never fire you. Right? They will always make sure you're taken care of because it's oh, when they think about you, they think of one thing they didn't wanna do that they didn't have to do. It's a great place to be in.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean showing up for work is not just about your success but how to make others successful. And that's true whether you're an individual contributor or whether you're the team leader.

Is Defining an Employee's Value the Responsibility of a Good Boss?

Host Rob Stevenson: Yep. Do you think making a case of your own value is in part or maybe mostly the role of a good boss?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I think it's a shared responsibility. I definitely wanna set up the people on my team for success and I try and acknowledge them in public as often as I can, so people know it's their good work that they're benefiting from.

But I also want people to be able to stand on their own two feet and advocate for themselves and have their work speak for them. So, I think because any co-dependency, right, can get to be kind of tricky. I'd rather have two individuals who are working towards the same thing.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. It cannot be just their responsibility. Right? Because you may not get a great boss. But in my experience, really good bosses are that way. They're happy to explain why you are doing a good job to the rest of the business.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yes.

Host Rob Stevenson: And if your boss isn't doing that, it might be worth investigating why.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Mhmm.

Host Rob Stevenson: Are you not doing your job or are they not a good boss? Those are the two possibilities, I think.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: And they're not mutually exclusive. You might not be doing your job and have a bad boss. Right?

Host Rob Stevenson: Everyone gets fired.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's right. So, a whole world of possibilities.

Host Rob Stevenson: That's right. Thank you for sharing that.

I think it's really important for folks to remember, to self-advocate, to find ways to do it strategically, at times in a delicate way, at times in an indelicate way. You must advocate for yourself. No one's coming to save you. Don't ask, you don't get, etc. So, I'm glad we got to speak about that a little bit.

Current Challenge: Employee Mental Wellness

Host Rob Stevenson: What's going on for you now, Angela? I would love to just hear, you know, what's top of mind? What's keeping you busy right now?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: What's keeping me busy right now is continuing to look after the mental wellness of our folks. There's been just so much change, and I think there is so much anxiety writ large in the world. Right? I mean, we've got the elections coming up. We have continuing conflict in the Middle East. We still have the Ukrainian invasion. We still have inflation to contend with.

I mean, there's just so much going on outside of work that I think continues to weigh heavily on our employees. And at the same time, right, we're not letting up on the pressures to perform.

Because our sector is media and publishing and to a pretty large extent professional services, we have to continue to find ways where people want to buy our stuff. And everyone is contracting on how they're spending money or they're being a lot more discriminating where they spend.

We're asking a lot of our employees. So, I'm very cognizant of watching the energy levels in the organization, how people are engaged, and how do we have the wellness conversations to make sure we're making space for them to recover from the week before so that they're ready and recharged to go into the next week.

How to Support Employees & Prevent Burnout

Host Rob Stevenson: Is this a matter of just going back to having really good leaders and having good bosses who can check-in? Is it also about providing resources? What is the best way to ensure folks are at their best?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It's all of the above. It's about the manager. It's about the environment of the organization. It's about the resources, tools, and benefits you offer. It's the whole suite, right? There's no one silver bullet that can do all of that for you, so you might have the most compassionate manager.

But if you don't have a time off policy that allows people to take a break from work, then your manager's handcuffed and how much they can help you. So, it is really the holistic approach to how you treat your employees that will make a difference.

How to Support Employees' Time Off

Host Rob Stevenson: Have you ever had a case of someone who just didn't take their own time off? Who wasn't using vacation? Who just never thought to do it?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yes. Absolutely.

Host Rob Stevenson: Do you encourage them? Like, hey, I don't care if you don't go on a tropical vacation, just spend a day at home. Do you encourage people? Like, hey, use your vacation days.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I have given my senior team the day. And I'd say, 'I will cover for you.' I just force them to take the day. Because sometimes you have to be a little pushy about it because they're so committed, so dedicated to their work, and it can be hard to break the cadence.

And so sometimes I just say, 'you know what? I'm gonna cover the day and you go and take a break.' For the holidays, I used to give gifts and now I give them the gift of a day off.

Host Rob Stevenson: That is a real gift.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah. Giving people back time is tremendous. So that's the best practice that I encourage all managers to try. You know, that's better than a bottle of wine that they will never drink or another gift card.

Literally, choose a day when your whole team can take the day off and then you cover for them, all of their out of office messages come to me, and I take care of it for them for the day.

Host Rob Stevenson: That's fantastic. If you're giving a gift card, it'd better be for a massage and it'd better be for the middle of the day.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's alright. It's alright. Exactly.

Host Rob Stevenson: This feels like a delicate thing. How do you measure, like, employment mental health? How do you know that you're being successful?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: You gotta ask.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: You gotta ask and you have to really want to hear the answer. This is not a cocktail party icebreaker, 'How are you' kind of question? This is a 'I really wanna take time and understand how are you?

• What are you working on right now that is draining you of energy?
• When's the last time you felt good about something that you worked on?
• Am I helping you enough?
• Am I showing up enough for you?

You have to really mean the question when you ask it. And then do something with that.

Advocate for Employee Mental Wellness with Executive Leaders

Host Rob Stevenson: Mental health is increasingly destigmatized, which is great. Yes. However, I can see a world, a company where someone in your position as CHRO says, 'Hey, it's really important for me to prioritize getting resources and understanding the mental health of our employees, I want this to be a big goal of mine.'

But the powers that be say, 'No, that's not gonna help the bottom line,' or 'They should just take a day off, go on a vacation. We're not gonna help people with this.'

It sounds like that's not the case at Harvard Business Publishing, but do you foresee that pushback? What would you do if you were in a position where you wanted to prioritize mental health? And the powers that be said, 'You know Angela? Of course, we want our people to be happy and healthy, but that's up to them to take the time and they need to know themselves. We got other things for you to work on.'

What would you do in that case?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: You have to tie it to the business metrics. You have to tie it to the strategy. Right? If all your people are burned out, disengaged, and working at their half-life of potential, that's going to have serious consequences. So, you have to tie it to the success of the organization.

And I'm very fortunate that I made the case, and I didn't have to fight that hard. This leadership team understands taking care of our people is also taking care of the business.

Training Peers as a Mental Health 'First Aid' Resource

We were able to invest over a quarter of a million dollars in a mental health first aid program, where we certified two dozen of our employees to serve as mental first aid, First Aiders. It’s another resource for our employees to go to instead of HR or the EAP. They could turn to their peers who understand what it's like to work at HBP and the stresses that they might be under and get some counseling.

It was a huge effort. It was over two years ago and most of those First Aiders are still with the company. It's a little bit of a double-edged sword. They don't get a lot of traffic, which maybe means that people don't need the support or they're still not as comfortable as we would like them to be, but the resource is there.

Host Rob Stevenson: That is always a challenge. You work so hard to provide a resource, and then, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink sort of thing. It's as if, 'hey, people, please make use of this.'

In the case of First Aid, your mental health First Aid people, that could be a variety of things. People could, not know it exists, struggle with trust, or not be ready for it. How do you elicit why something is not being used?

Inspire Employee Adoption of Wellness Programming

Angela Cheng-Cimini: We just keep campaigning for it. We do a little spotlight on who the mental health First Aiders are, and many of them list it in their email signature line. So, it's a reminder. Every year at open enrollment, we remind people the program is out there.

We're not terribly in their face about it anymore. We were when we first launched it. But I think it's one of those things that if we were to discontinue the benefit, people would stand up and take notice.

Host Rob Stevenson: Right. What are you hoping people speak about with these employee counselors?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I encourage them just to speak about anything. Really, I remember there was no sacred cow in those safe spaces. What they are there to do is really do first level intervention. Right? They're First Aiders. They're there until the real certified professionals come along.

The Value of Peers Certified in Mental Wellness First Aid

It's really in a moment of crisis or real need. They can sort of help people just come off the ledge, if you will? Get them out of danger, get them to a place where they can think about longer-term solutions to their needs and provide them with resources. Sometimes they're a sounding board or an ear. Sometimes just getting it off your chest is all you need.

Related: Let’s Talk; How to Start a Meaningful Wellness Conversation

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. I'm glad you iterated the First Aid part because when you are in need of mental health intervention, the process of going to get help can be daunting. Even when you're in a really good place, finding someone is hard.

To also drag yourself out of a bad place, enough to find the resources you need, it’s often too much. I've been in that position before. It's like ‘I need help, but I don't even have the energy to get myself help.’ What do you do in a case like that?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Right. So, we're hoping that because they are peers that it breaks down the barriers a little bit more, right? It's a safe place. It's mostly confidential unless there's going to be immediate harm, but we believe that there's a special offering there because it is their peers.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. That makes sense. And then if you were the one of the counselors themselves, your position would probably be, ‘Okay. I think it seems like you're really going through something. Let me help you get to the professional, the actual resource you need.’ Maybe that's the kindness, as opposed to being the therapist themselves. That's a fantastic perk.

Want to Employ a Mental Wellness First Aid Program of Your Own?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It is a great organization, the National Council for Mental Wellbeing and their mental health First Aid program.

They design programs. They do train the trainers. All of that. Check them out. They're global. When the employees get certified, the certification belongs to them forever. And it's very well known. It's not just in the US.

Host Rob Stevenson: Got it. Yeah. It's a fantastic resource for folks out there. I'm glad you shared that, Angela. Thank you for walking us through that.

The Multiple Divisions of Harvard Business Publishing

Host Rob Stevenson: The other thing I was excited to speak to you about regarding the company is you're in a unique space with this publishing arm of the business. There's also this more, productized, is sort of a dirty word here, but ed tech piece of the business, with more in-depth of resources available for folks and for companies.

And then you're attached to Harvard, the academy, in some fashion.

I'm curious how it relates to your role. How does it shake out? Are you recruiting across both sides, the publisher and the ed tech side? Where would you say you're spending your time? And, just how you kind of explain your remit, I guess, is my question.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So, we have three business units.

1. The press is the one that you know the best. That's the magazine and the books.
2. Then we have the division responsible for the distribution and sale of case studies to institutions of higher education.
   We do both our own case studies that come out of Harvard Business School, but we also represent case studies that come out of Tuck [Dartmouth] or London School of Economics, or Stanford.
3. And then the third arm is Professional Services. In that group, we co-create leadership programs with the Global 2000. We have a digital solution that supports that, and we also do blended cohort offerings. So, my remit is to support those three businesses as well as the other units. So, for example, our IT group if they need to hire someone, our product development group if they need someone in HR. In fact, right now, we're hiring for someone right now. So, we support ourselves as well.

Angela Shares an Open Role at Harvard Business Publishing

Host Rob Stevenson: Shout out, what's the role?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It is a senior employee relations manager.

Host Rob Stevenson: We didn't speak about this. But, while we're at it, I understand lots of folks are looking for work in the space right now. Could you share a little more about the role? Because if I were listening to this, I would be like, Angela sounds like a great boss. Maybe I wanna work for her.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It's actually reporting to our director of employee experience. Probably three-quarters of their focus is working with leaders across the organization to help them with their toughest employee challenges, whether that's performance management, behavioral, anything else that comes up, right?

For example, a manager says, ‘I have someone who's struggling with mental wellness. How do I support them through that journey?’

So, we’re looking for someone experienced. The other part of the time is working on some employer branding to help us to continue to lift the profile of Harvard Business Publishing as a great place to work.

Host Rob Stevenson: It sounds like it's kind of a multifaceted role. Right?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It is.

Host Rob Stevenson: It feels less administrative. It feels less like what I think of when I hear those letters 'HR'. Right? This feels like it's more new age-y. It feels more ‘We're going to be more nuanced about our organizational development.’ Is that the case?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: We're gonna coach. We're gonna counsel. We're going to equip our managers with the skills they need so they can be great managers. And, of course, we've got a great corpus of research and materials that we lean on because we publish the stuff.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah, of course. There's this famous quote, 'what if we develop our people and they leave?' And to which the counter is, 'what if we don't and they stay?'

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's right.

How to Measure the Success of Employee Programs

Host Rob Stevenson: So, it feels just on the face of it, this need to understand employees' mental health, to prioritize mental health, of course, but also to develop them to understand their motivations. That feels like a well-established, good priority. How do you measure the success of those kinds of programs?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I don't know that there's an easy straight line to that, but you can look at things like your employee engagement scores, your attrition, manager satisfaction, right?

How well do they think their teams are performing, and then obviously look at business results. I don't think there's a single indicator. It's a whole host of things that feed into whether or not employees can show up and be their best every day.

How Angela Assesses Her Own Career Satisfaction

Host Rob Stevenson: I'm so curious, [as] the CHRO for a high-profile, well-respected organization, how do you reflect on your own career motivations? What are they for you? How do you make sure and how do you ensure this is the right place for you to do the best work you can?

Angela Cheng-Cimini: If anyone has checked out my profile on LinkedIn, you'll see I've moved around a lot. Over the course of my 30 years, I think I've been in 10 different roles. And I think for me, the guiding principle has been:

• Do I feel that I'm adding value?
• Am I growing?
• Am I seen as someone who can have an impact on the organization?

And when any one of those things starts to be untrue, then I have to make sure it's balanced out by the other two. If more than two are out of balance, then it's probably time for me to move on.

So, I never try to get too attached because I think it's not good for me personally, to stay around in a place that either I've outgrown or has outgrown me. And so, certainly, I think what I've seen in the last decade is less of a stigma around that kind of mobility.

Our parents stayed at one place for 20, 30 years, and that was the way it was. And now, later generations are finding they do have a voice in determining where they need to be in terms of their work. And they don't need to suffer in silence. They can go out and find another place where they add value and feel valued. And I think that's a wonderful change in the workplace.

Angela’s Career Advice

So, I encourage all of you as you're looking for work to find a place where you really feel like you belong. Some of that is just intuition and trusting your gut. No matter how good it looks on paper, no matter how good they're paying you, I think about what really is worthy of your time because that's limited. I mean, we don't have forever.

Host Rob Stevenson: Yeah. That's absolutely true and it's unfortunately true for this recording. Angela, this was really fun speaking with you, and you have such a just nuanced, I think, modern take on this space. I wish everyone in the CHRO role thought about these things like you do. I think companies and employees would be a lot happier if they did. Angela, thank you so much for being here. I've really, really loved chatting with you today.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for making it so easy, Rob.

Host Rob Stevenson: Talk Talent to Me is powered by LHH. LHH is a global talent solutions and HR advisory company committed to a beautiful working world through an organization's most valuable asset, their people. Customized to support the entire professional talent lifecycle, LHH helps hire great teams, develop skills, nurture leaders, and advance professionals on their journeys. Recruitment. Development. Career Transition. LHH.

Key Takeaways from This Episode

1. Self-Promotion Strategies:
   • Tailor your approach to self-advocacy based on personality type.
   • Use tools like follow-up emails or elevator pitches to highlight contributions.
   • Understand and align with your boss's and their supervisor’s goals to increase influence.
2. Mental Wellness at Work:
   • Invest in peer-based mental health support programs to complement traditional resources.
   • Proactively encourage employees to use time off and provide managers with tools to support wellness.
3. Managerial and Organizational Support:
   • Managers should actively recognize employee contributions and foster a culture of support.
   • Organizations should prioritize mental wellness as a business strategy tied to performance.
4. Career Development:
   • Career satisfaction stems from adding value, growing personally, and having organizational impact.
   • Employees should seek workplaces that align with their values and growth aspirations.
5. Leadership's Role in Advocacy:
   • Leaders must balance acknowledging their team's contributions while encouraging self-advocacy.
   • Transparent communication and proactive leadership help retain top talent.

Editor’s note: since this episode was originally recorded, Angela has followed her intuition to “stop and smell the roses,” including “practicing HR at a much slower pace.” She noted in a Cornell Alumni feature that “I’m not old enough to retire, so I’m going to rewire.” In January 2025, she assumed a new role as a fractional Head of HR for The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Our most sincere congratulations!